Saturday, March 12, 2011

Dating A Non-Christian.

Girl With An Addiction has a lot to say at the moment.

This post isn't directed at anyone in particular, rather to those who think it's wrong to date a non-Christian, or to those who think it's alright.

I've been raised Christian my whole life, so when somebody asks me if I see God as my everything, I would normally say yes. Up until the past few years I'd trusted God with my everything. So much has happened in my life that now I just can't decide if this is really how I want to live my life...

If you know me well enough, then you'll know why I've made these decisions, and why I refuse to believe in a lot of things. As well as the obvious, you'll also know that I'm very stubborn, and I don't trust anyone easily.

Over the past year I've been put to the test of my faith many times, some of which that are just too personal for some of you to know. Other times you will know of, if you're lucky enough. And, just like a normal human being, I do have doubts, and plenty of them, about God.

God has done a lot in my life. I wish He hadn't done most of them, but He has, and so I have to live with that.

As you all should know (if you actually read my blog, and if you're friends with me), I go to a Christian school, and to youth and church, and so most of my friends profess to be Christian. This post will probably cause an uproar, but it's my blog, so get over it.

As some of you are well aware of, I'm in a relationship with a non-Christian. I don't see it as a bad thing, but it has brought a lot to my own, and other's attention...

So, with the permission of the people involved, I've copied a very extensive conversation from Facebook about this issue, and a few others...

Enjoy reading...

* * * * *

Person One
We need to watch that as Christians, we don't become extremely close friends, or go out with non-Christians. (Deuteronomy 7:3-4, Malachi 2:11, 2 Corinthians 6:14, 1 Kings 11:3-4)

Disease is contagious, but health is not, likewise, sin is contagious, but holiness does not transfer from one to another very easily.
Thoughts? (Arguments?)

  • Person Two likes this.

    • Person One 
      I know these verses speak of marriage, but why date a non-christian, if you have no intention of marrying them?
      Also, before you use the excuse that maybe you will help them see God, you would be able to do that better without being emotionally bound to them, and you would be a better witness by saying 'No, God says no, so I say no also, because that is his will.'

    • Me You may as well have just tagged me in the post, or wrote it on my wall.

    • Person One

       Wasn't only for you, otherwise i would have messaged it to you.

    • Me 

    • Me 
      Exactly. I've seen people do it before, so what's to say I can't? Or what if Meg were to date a non-Christian. We could help them become Christians.

    • Person Two

       what if he turns you agaisnt God?

    • Me 
      I highly doubt that, seeing as though he doesn't even have an opinion yet.. Which is good, because then I can help him form an opinion. A good one.

    • Person One 

      But they will more likely help you fall away from God and sin. see 1 kings 11:3-4. Yes, God can use it for good, but by doing it you are disobeying him, and thus you are sinning and need to repent. He is more likely to use it if you are honoring and obeying him. I mean, you can explain to the boyfriend that you cant date him because God says no, and through that, he will see God is more important then he is,. and it may challenge him to ask about it.

    • Person One 

      But, you are showing him that its ok to disobey God, if you want to.

    • Me 
      ‎... But you never know what could happen.
      God says He has a plan, and that we need to spread the Good News. What if this is His way of telling us to share it?

    • Person Two

       lead by example?

    • Person One

       It isnt for us to say, ohh God, use my sin, its for God to say, obey me, and I will use you whatever you do. Show me in the bible (if you don't know, then Google will probably help you-I used it)

    • Me 
      I'm not saying that though. What if it is in God's plan to let us date non-Christians, so we can bring them into a relationship with Him?

    • Person One

       Why would God command us to not do it, if he wanted is to do it? Yeah, he will use it to fulfill his purpose, either way, but from a human perspective, we need to seek to obey God, not live for ourselves.

    • Me 
      Why would God created millions of sinners if only a certain amount were going to Heaven anyway? Why does he let things happen if Jesus has already paid for our sins?

    • Person Three

       it can also,...i think...depend on how strong a faith you have in God

    • Person One

       All who repent and believe will got to heaven. Basically the whole bible backs this up, and only when taken out of context can it be used to argue against it. God created people who wouldnt be saved...because He wanted to. I dont have a true good answer for it, but from our perspective it is a choice, and so obviously some say yes, and some say no. He will do his will through all people, not only through christians

    • Me 
      Exactly also. What if something bad happened in said relationship? Something to cause you to turn to God more than before, because He spoke to you, or because you suddenly have faith in Him? What if He wants you to be in a relationship with a non-Christian so He can help you become a stronger Christian?

    • Person Two

      i disgaree Person One
      you are saying God sends people to hell
      he makes them just so that they can go to hell
      he controls everything they do
      makes him seem evil
      creates things just to condem them an eternity in hell

    • Person One

       If he wanted that, why would he make it clear that he doesnt want that? He wants us to know non-christians/evangelize, but if your emotionally attached to someone, it is heaps harder to challenge them yeah? and harder to tell then that they are wrong

    • Me 
      Yet another of my main points on this topic, Person Two.
      And, if God's plan is so perfect, then why did He take away my brothers?

    • Person One

      Person Two. I have struggled with this. God doesn't want people to go to hell, obviously. It's hard to get your head around (impossible?) but God has 2 kinds of will. Sovereign will, that will happen, and permissive will, that he allows things to happen. So, God';s sovereign will will happen. If he wants me to do something, it will happen. But, we have a choice, and so we choose something, and he permits it to happen, even if it isn't exactly what he wants to happen. He has a plan in it, he uses it, and will glorify himself through it, but he doesn't have to like it as such. Make some sort of sense?

      Jess. This I cant answer. He had a plan in it, and he will/has used it. This is where we must trust him. I know, very hard to do, but we have to.

      Person Two, how can we trust God, if he doesn't have any control over what happens?

    • Person Two

      he does control some things but not everything he knows what will happen but he doesnt always control it because thats not what he is like
      he sets things in motion and allows people choices if us humans choose right then good things happen
      but if we choose wrong bad things will happen
      God gives us a choice to make and our decisions decide what will happen
      just because he knows what will happen doesnt mean he controls what happens
      he could, if he wanted to, control everything but instead he gives us a choice and allows us to live our own lives that are governed by him
      its like the government, they put laws in place and give us rules that should help our lives, they make some decisions for us but in the most part we make our own decisions and live our lives as we wish

    • Person One

      Heres something I have been talking about, which IO haven't really bought up. God can stop satan from doing stuff yeah? (Job 1), but he can also let satan do stuff, and will use it for good. He doesnt like causing us pain, or watching people die, or having people reject him, but he lets it happen
      aabnd will use it for good

    • Person Three

      but sometimes if we choose right bad stuff might happen cos maybe satan is trying to stop us from doing the right stuff.

      And i agree with Person One that he does let satan do stuff....cos like God doesnt want bad stuff to happen to us and he does make bad stuff happen to us...when that happens it is satan and maybe God is letting him do that to test our faith for him...or even to bring us closer to him in the end

    • Person Two

       if he doesnt like causing us pain, watching people die and people reject him why does he let it happen?
      he has the power to stop it
      what is the point of hurting the people he loves?

    • Person One

       Without God, we would never choose good. the only reason we would do 'good' is if we have hidden motives yeah? as shown by everyone in the world. So, the only way we can choose good, is through God, so he controls our good actions, putting it in our hearts to do good. (had a nother point in my mind, but I just lost it.)

    • Me 
      And so He'll permit us to date non-Christians, to glorify Him, yes?
      That's basically what you just said/implied, Person One.

      If He wanted a plan for my life to be devoted in Him, to come out of killing my little brothers, then it's not really what He should have done. Yes, it's in His plan ra ra ra.. But why do it that way?

      And Person Three, I agree with you in the last few sentences.
      So again to Person One, what if it's His plan to test my faith through dating a non-Christian?

    • Person Two

       so Person One what is the point of your preaching to others?
      God has already decided who is coming to heaven
      what is the point of missionaries, etc?

    • Person Two

       we dont need to tell people about the gospel
      God has already decided who is coming to heaven and who is going to hell

    • Person Two

       kinda defies the whole point of the bible

    • Me 
      We could be going to Hell. Right now, in a few minutes, in a few days, months, years. We could all die and go straight to Hell. It wouldn't be any different if we tried proclaiming the Good News of God, because it wouldn't make a difference anymore.

      I will always, no matter what, stand by my previous question, of why did God kill my little brothers if He wanted me to have faith in Him. That's just going to push me away from Him.

    • Person Three

       I think God wants everyone to come to heaven right...but not everyone will....I think that he will constantly provide ways and people and that to influence that person to become a christian but ultimately that person has to choose whether he is going to follow God or not...But in the end he will let them go to hell because they wouldnt listen to any of his ways to influence them to be christians..if that makes sense

    • Person One

      but Jess, will dating a non-christian glorify him? Sure, one out of 100 might, but its more likely to glorify him, if we obey him.

      He has a plan in it. We probably wont ever see the extent of it. Maybe his plan is to get you to tust him when everything in this idiot world is not good?

      It is not for us to make tests for our faith. I can say, yeah Giod, I'll go on drugs to test my faith in you, but faith in God is obeying him, so by disobeying him, your not doing so well in the test.

      Person Two, from our perspective, we have a choice. God chooses to use us, he doesnt have to. He doesnt need us, we need him. If you refuse to preach, he will get someone else to, and they will gett he reward instead of you (bible verse is in the bible, dont know where). God uses our evangelism to work in others. We plant the seed and water it, but God makes it grow (1 cor 3:6)

      If we dont tell people, then God will do it another way, but he choses to use us, for our encouragement and for our good.

    • Person Two

       you didnt answer my question
      what is the point of telling people if they are going to heaven or hell wether or not they get preached to?

    • Person One

      I think I agree Person Three, but I also am sure God has his hand on it ultimately. He can make them be saved (as Person Two says) but he chooses not to. why? who knows. He gives us the choice.

      Jess, I have no answer for you. He allowed your brothers to die, not because he wanted them to die, but because he knew that through that death (through that sin) he can make more good then if it had never happened

      The point of preaching to others is because God tells us to. Same with the point of praying. Its a trust thing.

    • Person Three

       oh yeah i know God has like the power to do like anything. He could just be like yeah you gonna be a christian and then BAM they become a christian but he doesnt do that...i mean he might with some people and maybe not with others...some he might let make decision themselves and that...i dunno haha

    • Person One

       Family bible reading be back ASAP

    • Person Two

      yes but what is the point of the bible and the gospel if God has decided who is going to heaven and who is not?
      for that matter what is the point of the earth?
      God made us to have a relationship with him
      the way you are saying it sounds like he made us just to control us
      the idea of making us was for us to choose him over ourselves
      what your saying, Person One, is that he made us to live out a pointless life (it doesnt matter if we tell others about God or not) and then have our eternity decided for us already

    • Me
       Person One, dating a non-Christian may not glorify Him at first, but it will give me a chance to tell him about the Gospel.
      As he has just stated, he's not that big on religion at the moment, but he wold like to read the Bible because it's a good story, and has a lot of life lessons in it. I think I'm already making progress, yes?

      And, by you saying that God wanted them to die:
      Through that death (through that sin) he can make more good then if it had never happened...
      You're saying that my little brothers could have grown up to be rapists, thieves or murderers, and yet killing them is okay? God took them away, and if He expects me to turn to Him through that, then He can think again.

    • Person Two

       what your saying nathanael is that God killed them
      making him a murderer
      i cant believe that of God because he is perfect

    • Me
       And then Person One will say that it's because of Satan. But if God never wanted murder, and if He truly really hated it, then why wouldn't He just get rid of Satan once and for all, so everything can be perfect again?

    • Person Three

       good point Jess...why doesnt he!

    • Person Two

       God is going to get rid of satan once and for all
      judgement day :P

    • Person One

       OK, Give me 20 mins to catch up :P Ok, so dad it telling me I have to do my work. I will read it later. But, either way, All of us need to find biblical evidence for what we are saying. So go get some and then agrue.

    • Person Two

      it says throughout the bible that God is perfect, doesnt commit a sin
      if you payed an assasin to kill someone you are as much to blame as the assasin you killed the person
      your saying God lets the devil kill people
      doesnt that make God a sinner?

    • Me

      I just don't understand why it is so bad to date a non-Christian.
      Yes, in the Bible it says we shouldn't marry them, but who said anything about marriage?
      But that must mean we're leading them on. Which isn't correct at all, because some people just like living in the moment, and not looking toward the future.
      Maybe it's great to date non-Christian so we can bring them to God. We would have more chances and more possibilities to bring them to God if we were in a close relationship with them, because they would want to make us happy, and they would want us to stay with them. So really, we can date non-Christians, because it's so much more likely that they could become Christians through a relationship. And I doubt some people are going to end a good relationship just to turn around and tell their partners that they need to be a Christian to be in a relationship with them.

      Also, if God never wanted us to date non-Christians, why not just make everyone a Christian?

    • Person Two

       dating non christians is alright so long as you are always closer to God then to your boyfriend/girlfriend
      dont ever give God up for a human being

    • Me
       And if we're not always closer to God (theoretically), if someone were to happen in the relationship that made us draw nearer to Him, then that would also perfectly fine to date a non-Christian, because we'd be going back to God, thus repenting.

    • Person Two
       but you shouldnt have to repent in the first place
      much better if you never got further away in the first place

    • Person One
       I'm not here at the moment, But dad just said, if you guys want to come around and we can discuss this with him, then We shall get Pizza. Dad knows heaps, and he has investigated it and made decisions about it, I recommend that we do this. You can ask him any question, if he doesn't know the answer, he will try very hard to find out.

    • Me

      True, what if you were further away before entering the relationship? Or what if you were never even with God before entering the relationship?
      Or, what if it was the other way around? What if God let you be in a relationship with a non-Christian, who became a Christian through something completely different?
      Anything could happen, which is why I'm so curious as to why God just doesn't fully control everything, or just destroy Satan once and for all.

    • Me
       Gluten-free pizza?

    • Person Two

      it much likelier that you will be pulled further away from God then be pulled closer so the danger level is very high
      some people will risk it some wont
      God doesnt fully control everything, his influence is in almost everything but he doesnt directly control everything
      as there wouldve been no point in making us and giving us free will

    • Me
      My question still stands... What if?
      What if we're pulled closer towards God?
      What if the non-Christian is pulled towards God?
      What if the whole relationship turns out to be completely based on God, everything is Godly, and both partners turn to God... What if only one of them is going to Heaven?
      What if God only chooses one of them to go into Heaven? The whole purpose of sharing the Gospel is defeated. The whole idea of having a Christian relationship is defeated.

    • Person Three

      but doesnt it also depend on the personality of the non-christian lets say that the person like is a like extreme athiest and just wants to convince everyone that there is no God and everything...then (obviously) that relationship isnt exactly one to be involved in...but what if the person is like open to it..and isnt going to try to change you and is open to what you have to say...i mean not all non-christians will try....but then...also....just being with that could make you open to so many temptations that depending on the strength of the person they could be open to....
      Every person is different..some might be more open to the influence of others because they are unsure of there own that case then they really should be with someone who is strong in their faith with God so that they can help them grow in their faith...
      But what if the christian person was extremely stubborn and wouldnt change for anything...then the non-christian might realise that what they believe and have to say is worth listening to and that..
      also having the attachment of the relationship could mean that the non-christian likely to listen to them....or that the christian likely to follow the do you really know what it is gonna turn out like

    • Person Two

       being an extreme athesiest kindve defies the point of being an atheiest :P
      they talk about God as much as christians do
      true athesiests dont ever speak of God

    • Person Three

       you know what i mean!!

    • Person Two

      yes i do :P
      and i agree with you

    • Me 
      Person Three
      , what you said is exactly what I was going to write! :P
      I agree with you.
      I don't see how it is that bad for someone to date a non-Christian if they're open to it, which is what I've been trying to say.
      With previous experience, and current, dating a non-Christian who is open with religion and who respects your beliefs can be a good thing. They're more willing to be involved in whatever religion you choose, because they respect you, and because they're not necessarily that worried about the outcome of the religious side to it.

    • Me
      My dad just posted this on my status, and I fully agree with him:
      "The Bible doesn't actually forbid the dating of Non-Christians, rather the dating of non believers (Corinthians 6:14). So really God permits Christians dating Muslims, Jews etc. Even those who have no defined Faith, but acknowledge the existence of God are permitted to be dated."
      So Person One, there's your Biblical evidence.

    • Person Three

      what if being with the non-christian made the christian in the relationship realise how bad the life without God is so then your faith in God will then get stronger and then if they see that it might help them gain a faith in God.

      but also....personally i don't see a point in going out with someone unless it is going to actually lead to something more...with going with a non-christian they might not want it to ever lead anywhere (im not saying this bout your guy Jess as i dont know him) but yeah if they were just going out with you for the sake of going out with someone then there is no real might be best to be friends with them and then if they then turn to God then in the end something might happen from that.
      but then that probably cos i think you should be like real good friends first and then see what happens after yeah

    • Me
      I agree Person Three, exactly what I've told Person One in the past actually.

      I personally am not going to date someone if I don't see something more happening either. Most people are like that, and most people's partners may see it the same way too, or they may not.
      If my boyfriend was dating me just for the sake of it, then yes, I would be hurt, but I wouldn't see it as that big of a thing. We're still young, and life to me is all about living like there's no tomorrow. Cliche' I know, but I would much rather have a good relationship where I can try and tell him about God, then not have one where he can hear about the Gospel, and where we can both step out of it having learnt something, at all.

      Some people who enter relationships like this have never heard of the Gospel before. So it's better to try, than to have never tried at all.

    • Person One

       Still haven't read, and cant yet, but I am working out my viewpoint, and suggest you do likewise. Type in arminianism vs calvinism to Google, it might help you. Go by biblical answers, not personal ones. Right now, Romans 6 and John 6:35-40 should be taken into consideration.

    • Me 
      My viewpoint's been worked out for a while now...
      I would rather stick to my own personal experiences at the moment, because unlike the Bible, they've helped me more.

    • Person Four

      A Christian dating a non-Christian OR a non-beliver is simply unbiblical. In the NT era it was very rare that a woman had a choice who she should marry. However, in the very rare circumstances where she was free to marry whoever she wanted, Paul wrote: "...she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must BELONG TO THE LORD" (1 Corinthians 7:39). When Paul uses the word "Lord" he is speaking about Jesus. Given that a Christian is only permitted to marry a Christian, it follows that for a Christian to date a non-Christian is unloving, as it's simply leading them on. Some might argue that it gives a good opportunity to evangelise the non-believer, but that's a load of rubbish. The message that the unbeliever really hears is: Jesus is lord...except when you want to ignore him. That is simply not the gospel. No matter how many good words you use, that's still the message you're actually preaching.

      In a church I used to be at, the bible study group where the people had the most frustrations was the women's group where the majority were married to non-Christian husbands. They would implore people to date true believers (ie Christians) only.

    • Me
      Good reasoning.

      I don't really have much to add apart from the fact that I still stand by everything I've said.

      Maybe one day I'll change my mind, but for now I've decided to basically give up on believing in anything. I've stated my part, asked more questions than intended and, if anything, I'm less of a Christian than what I was before entering this discussion.

      I don't know what will come out of this comment, or if it will even make that big of a difference, but I don't think there's much point in me believing in something or someone who's just going to continue to hurt me.
      You can agree, you can disagree- I don't care.
      But I just ask that whatever you do, whether you be Christian, non-Christian, or undecided, that you don't try and change my opinion. Because the fact of the matter is, it won't be changing anytime soon.

    • Person Two

       Person Four, the point of not marrying a non believer or one who doesnt belong to the lord is to stop us from putting them before God
      if we do marry them but make sure they know that God comes first wouldnt that be setting a good example to them?
      showing them that your love for God comes before anything else
      even the person who you love most in the world?

      i am not a calvanist but in true belief of it if we did end up marrying the non christian it wouldnt be by our choice, God would have made us do it so therefore it would have to be considered right as God doesnt make mistakes

      • Person Four

        ‎@Person Two: God's will and God's plan are 2 different things. Is it God's will that an innocent man suffer and die? The answer must be "NO". Is it God's plan that Jesus died on the cross? The answer must be "Yes". If I committed any sin (including marrying a non-Christian), I would never dare say "God made it happen". God is surely sovereign over all things but that doesn't mean he can be attributed blame for our evil. By the logic you've used in your second paragraph, I could say that if I went out and murdered someone, it wasn't my choice but God's choice, and God doesn't make mistakes.

        Your statement about marrying a non-Christian being wrong because we might put them before God is unfounded. It's wrong because it unites that which is holy with that which is defiled, and because it makes for a marriage where the gospel can't be modelled as it should be (as in Ephesians 5).

        More generally, I'm concerned that so many people seem to argue away from obedience to God's word, rather than towards it. It appears that a prevalent attitude is: "how can I get around what the Bible clearly says", rather than "how can I obey what the Bible clearly says". There are some things about the teaching of John Calvin that we might find unpalatable, but that doesn't mean they should be rejected. If they are in kilter with the clear teaching of scripture (which I happen to think they are) then they need to be heeded.

      • ‎@Jessica: there's a great big sign at the beach that says: "Caution, sharks!". When someone comes along and says: "I'm going for a swim", I quickly tell them to turn around and go away, because there's clearly great danger. But should they then retort: "But I don't believe in sharks", would I be right to stop bothering them and let them go in? Absolutely not! If you reject Jesus now then he will reject you later on, and that results in something more dreadful than I care to imagine. True Christians will therefore always seek to change your opinion because they have love toward you. You can say you don't believe anything all you want, but the reality is that there is great danger in your position, so I implore you: change your opinion. Read the gospel of Mark (it's the easiest one) in the New Testament with your adult mind. Don't let me convince you of the truth - learn it for yourself. Peace.

      • Person Two
         ‎@ Person Four
        i dont plan on marrying a non christian its just i like to argue
        What is the difference between Gods will and Gods plan if God controls everything then whatever happens by all rights was his plan

      • Person Four

        Perhaps using different words will help. Let's say God's "will" and God's "desire". It was God's will that Jesus be crucified to pay for the sins of the world. It was NOT God's desire that an innocent man suffer and die a cruel death. Both of these statements, according to the Bible MUST be true, and therefore, no matter what logic we ourselves might employ, it MUST be the case that there is a difference between what God desires to happen and what he actually allows to happen.

        Just because God allows a Christian to marry a non-Christian is therefore not enough evidence to suggest that such a course of action is desired by God. To the contrary, his word (the Bible) makes it clear that God certainly does NOT desire for a Christian to marry a non-Christian. But just as in Romans chapter 1, he allows people to commit sin; he 'gives them over' to do what they want to do.

      • Person Two
         but God is soveriegn and controls absoluetely everything
        so therefore he wouldve made them marry the non christian
        well according to calvanism

      • Person Four

        Person Two, from the way you reason about this stuff I strongly suspect you're not really understanding Calvinism properly.

        Have you ever read any of the work by John Calvin? Within the first few chapters of his most influential work (Institutes of the Christian Religion), Calvin argues very strongly that God's sovereignty does not ever negate man's culpability for sin. Calvin would never assert that God "made them marry the non Christian". He would say that "God allowed the sinful action to take place".

        I'm happy to chat about the teaching of John Calvin of course, but for the issue at hand you'll notice I've been referring only to the Bible. Will you concede that the Bible makes it clear that:

        a) a Christian marrying a non-Christian (and therefore dating one) is unloving in disobedient?

        b) that God is not to be blamed for our sin even though he is completely sovereign over all things?

        Unless you accept these two, I contend that you're not actually accepting the plain teaching of scripture, regardless of what your might think about the teaching of John Calvin.

      • Person Two
         but as God allows it to happen he isnt stopping it
        therefore making it his choice that we marry the non christian?

      • Person One
         Just something a bit off topic, but really good. When I left last night, I prayed that God would get someone else to continue to discuss it - and I suggested to God (sounds weird I know) Person Four or Person Five, and look what happened :) So, to some reading this, God does hear our prayers, and he will answer (although his answer may be no, in which case you need to trust he knows best anyway).

      • Person Two
         i would like but my ipod doesnt let me :(

      • Person One
         Hahaha, anyway, back to discussion. Person Four?

      • Person Two
        also what happens if you marry a christian then they stop being a chriatian?
        do you divorce them or stay married to them?

      • Person Three
         God says no to divorce
      •  There is a verse somewhere bout that

      • Me
         So basically, everything in the Bible is against people. My parents got divorced, and my Mum (a Christian) is now married to a non-Christian, the guy who's evidence seems a lot clearer to me than most of you. She's a Christian, and if anything, she's bringing my step-dad to God. That could be the same for me, or for anyone.

      • Person Three
         I think God hates divorce yeah,……but what if you in like real bad marriage. And divorce is the only option you know.....what about then?

        • Me
          In my parent's case divorce was the only option, but the point is that my mum's now husband, a non-Christian, is probably more closer to God than he's ever been.

        • Person Three

           Is it then like ok to divorce?
        •  Like in God's eyes would it be ok

        • Me

          The Bible says no, but it also says no to marrying non-Christians, and yet I still state that my step-dad seems more of a Christian than ever, after marrying my mum, a divorcee.
          Was it then right for my mum to marry a non-Christian, because he's more of a Christian now? Or is it still sin, and will she still be punished for marrying him, and will he be punished for not being a Christian?
          To me, I see my parent's marriage as a fantastic thing, because my mum can share God with her husband... But no, wait, that can't be right, because in the Bible it says that we CAN NOT MARRY NON-CHRISTIANS.

        • Person Three

           Hmmm good point Jess. I don't know!! As I say I think it really sorta depends on the personalities of the people.

        • Me

          Exactly. I don't mean to bring this back to me, even though it was kinda about me... Ahh anyways, I think it's fine to date a non-Christian who's open about Christianity. My boyfriend (as I've said earlier) is okay with me being a Christian, and I get a vibe that he's curious about it. It's just frustrating when Christians shove their beliefs about dating non-Christians down my throat.
          If my boyfriend were a Christian and we were just dating with no prospect of marriage, it would be fine. And I can bet you my life on that. Sure, people might say things about it, but as long as he's a Christian, it's fine.

        • Person Four

          ‎@Jessica: there's a number of things going on here so I'll respond bit by bit.

          The claim that "basically, everything in the Bible is against people" sounds like venting. That's totally wrong and I think we both know it. God so loved the world that he gave his son Jesus...

          Regarding your mum's divorce and remarriage, I've never met her and I would never dare condemn her personally - even if I thought what she did was sinful, it's no more or less sinful than I am everyday. The point is to grapple with what the Bible teaches, in order to work out how to be obedient to it. That is very different from dealing with another person and pointing out where they need to repent or be encouraged.

          As for your mother's new husband being "probably more closer to God than he's ever been", I actually believe it in part. The Bible does teach that a non-Christian marriage partner is sanctified for the benefit of the children. This doesn't mean they're saved, but it does mean God will work on them to the extent that the children in the relationship are able to be brought up in a Christian environment. However, to talk as if there's somehow a spectrum of closer or further from God is not really Biblical. Either Jesus is your Lord or he is not: there is no middle ground.

          Regarding the idea that your mum could have been right to marry your step dad on the basis that he's now closer to God; this is not a Biblical position. Let me be clear, I'm in no way commenting on the validity of their marriage. Your argument is an 'ends-justifies-the-means' approach. If I do something wrong but it results in good, that doesn't mean that what I did suddenly becomes acceptable. You ask: "will he be punished for not being a Christian?" To that, I'm very sad to answer that yes, all people who reject Jesus face horrible consequences. I'll pray that God convicts your step dad of the truth so that he might be saved. Once again, let me be clear: I don't 'look down my nose' at non-Christians. I'm exactly as deserving of hell as they are - it's just that I've been forgiven and my sin has been paid for, and Jesus did it all - there's nothing good about me such that I can claim to deserve forgiveness. Before I became a Christian I was living in a relationship that the Bible said was wrong, so I have no right to take a 'moral high ground' against you or your mum or anyone.

        • ‎@Person Two: look, you're not really getting it. You've basically said over and over that if something happens God approves of it on the basis of his being completely sovereign. That's a very narrow and frankly unbiblical idea. As for what happens if someone marries a Christian who then falls away, the Bible is clear: you're to remain married - you've not sinned.

        • ‎@Jessica: Seeing as we've never met I feel uncomfortable to say this, and I hope that (as it says in Proverbs) you'll understand me 'stabbing you in the front' as a well-intentioned, rather than a negative thing. Nathaniel will (hopefully) attest to the fact that I genuinely want what's best for others, even if that involves saying some strong words. I hope you understand that I endevour to speak in love. So here goes...

          I think it's very common to see people argue AWAY from obedience to the Bible with great vigour. The Bible says a lot of things very clearly, but some of them we don't like because they get in the way of us living the lives we want to live. To have Jesus as lord always involves very difficult sacrifices.

          You've said: "I think it's fine to date a non-Christian who's open about Christianity". I think we both know that this view is not supported by the Bible. Why not just say: "I know God says what I'm doing is wrong, but I'm going to ignore him and do it anyway". If you're honest with yourself, I think this is where you'll arrive. If you really are a Christian you'll have a deep-down conviction (no matter how faint) that you are not being obedient to God in this area. I humbly suggest prayer on your part. Peace.

        • Person One

           Agreed with Person Four

        • Person Three

           I wanna say something but I can't seem to get it into words right.....

        • Me

          I understand what you've said, but what I meant by my step-dad becoming closer to God, is that until he married my mum, he wasn't really as open and accepting to God as he is now. He's still not a Christian, and to be honest I don't think he'll become one any time soon. But the fact still stands that if my mum hadn't "sinned" in marrying a non-Christian, then he would never have been in a Christian family, thus implying that they're marriage is a Godly thing, because he's now more likely to turn to God. If he does, does that mean their marriage is still "sinful" or is it Godly?

          I know that what I'm saying is daft, and mostly out of anger and frustration, but it doesn't change the way I feel about it. I understand, and appreciate that you're saying all this out of Godly love, but, for me, I'm starting to dislike the Christian attitude toward everything. I mean no offence at all.

          Yes, I used to be a very strong Christian, and yes, I did used to believe almost everything in the Bible. But from personal experience I've almost always agreed on the Christian and Non-Christian relationships. I don't see it as that big of a deal if a Christian dates a non-Christian. That's my opinion, and it'll probably never change either way.

          Perhaps it's too fast for me to say, but maybe I'm not a Christian anymore. In short: I'm kind of over people trying to force me to believe, though I appreciate their efforts.


        • Person Three

           Once again was gonna say something but can't seem to put it right hahaha
        •  would it be different thoughts about it all if the christian and the non-christian were just friends instead of going out with each other...because if the relationship was going to help the non-christian maybe build a relationship with God...wouldnt it have the same effect with just being friends.?
        • as i said i am having trouble putting it into words...

        • Me

           You mean if they were just friends with feelings for each other..?
          I don't really understand, haha. :/

        • Person Three

           no no i mean..sorta changing topic ish but i mean
          would it still be sinful to be like good friends with a non christian...?

        • Me
           Apparently not, so I've heard...

        • Person Three

           Cos sometimes I think being friends with a non-Christian could be easier in someways......I did have some great non-Christian friend…not all of our friendships ended well but some dis

        • Me

          Yeah, I guess it's fine to be friends with them, otherwise the Gospel wouldn't be spread... But it leads me back to non-Christians and Christians dating.. If they were just "friends" (not dating, but still having the same feelings for eachother), it would be exactly the same as dating thus "sinning", even though they're not necessarily officially dating.
          If that makes sense.

            • Person Three

          • Yeah yeah that makes sense. Hmmmm I dunno

          • Person One

            I know aye :P.
            Jess, I think the reason why dating would be considered sinful, would be because marriage is sinful. Dating, at least how I see it (as I have said before), is like preparation for marriage. Sure, God can, and might use it for good, but it would also bring about a whole heap of temptation that could be avoided otherwise yeah? and even the 'strongest' Christian finds it hard to fight Satan. So it might/very possibly will lead to more sin then if it didn't happen. Now yes, Jesus has paid for our sins, but we have to be living in opposition to Satan, and seeking to obey God in every aspect of our lives, not just the easy ones. Sadly being a Christian means making sacrifices you don't want to make (I think any true Christian can tell you that).
            Also, a companion such as a boyfriend, should be able to support you in everything and encourage you in everything, and so: one who does not agree with you on some major things in life wont be able to do this as well as someone who does agree (ie. is a Christian)


          • Person Three

             this is a bit off topic...but you know how like Satan makes stuff real hard for people who are Christians cos they arent with him...well does he still make stuff real bad for people who arent christians..?

          • Person One

            If they aren't Christians, then he will make things 'good' for them, so they wont turn to God. Sure, both parties will have good and bad times (Christians/non-Christians) but Satan wont stir up non-Christians to turn them to God, he will try to keep them lazy and keep them from looking for God. Makes sense? (I think I'm right in this) but then we have to remember that even though a short life here may be good, non-Christians will suffer for eternity (wish they wouldn't, but they will) while Christians will have an eternity of good in heaven.

          • Person Three

             yeah it mostly makes sense..i was just wondering bout that. :)

          • Me

             Person One, I know that it's "preparation for marriage" but why does it need to be like that? The majority of people who date in high-school don't end up marrying the same person they were dating. If they do, then good on them, but I just don't see what all the fuss is about. It's not against the law, and I know quite a few youth leaders and parents who date/dated without the prospect of marriage.
            We shouldn't need to make sacrifices in the first place.
            But what if they agree, they just don't live by it as much as you?

          • Person One

            Well, I think because, if you had the choice now, would you marry him? If you could? Just because others do it, doesn't make it right.
            We have to make sacrifices because people will be sinning around us and we will want to also, but we shouldn't, because we should want what God wants first.
            If they agree, they would be Christian right?

          • Person Five

            wow their is aot of typing. Ok my point of view lol. I belive that dating a non-christian is well... wrong and against god for the reasons Person One, Four and Three have said. In the bible it talks about not being yolked together. Well what dose yoked mean??? it means to form one. which is the same as marrage ( to become one with god if you know what I mean). so the bible says don't be yoked. Well I say don't even take the steps towards that by dating a non-christian. You may bring up Romans 4:2 and Ephesians 4:22-24 were it talks about going into the world but read carfully and the essence of it is saying be FRIENDS with them but don't yolk with them. I think the price to pay is a gamble to go out with a sinner.
            This is no little event;
            This IS LIFE or DEATH.

So, there you have it... My opinion, and a few others.
It's a lot to take in, and I'm still debating... But no matter what, for now my statements and my beliefs stand firm.

To be honest, I don't know at the moment.

I've stated my reasons so many times, and yet people persist on trying to change the way I think. It is annoying, and it does get on my nerves, even if they are only doing out of love.

I have a lot to sort out, and I would like to do it on my own.

I know it's going to be just as hard as before, if not worse. But I'll get through it... I always do!

I really do appreciate everyone's concerns, I just wish you would let me decide how to live my life.

I don't mean that harshly, I mean it honestly.

As I've said earlier on Facebook, I will stand by what I believe in, because I AM stubborn, and because I want to be happy.

If dating a non-Christian is unGodly in other people's eyes, but fine in mine, then I'm not going to change. I don't live to please anyone but myself.

Maybe one day I'll rebuild my relationship with God... In my own time, and without people shoving their beliefs down my throat, as some of of you have done.

Thank you for your time, love and care.

And guess what?

I'm going out with a non-Christian, and I'm not ashamed of it.

Girl With An Addiction
xoxo :P


  1. Heya Jess and People 1, 2, 3 and 4

    Wow! My head is spinning! I am not totally sure on where i stand in this issue and i don't want to shove my beliefs down anyones throat. also i know that no one would change their mind anyways but i would just like to say that dating a non-christian isn't an explicit sin and therefore it comes down to your heart attitudes and your motives in entering the relationship. I'm not saying that you have to go into the relationship JUST to make them become a christian but it does come down to your heart attitude in the whole thing. There is so much more i could say on that topic but i won't for everyones sake.

    Person 1: you know my opinions and my beliefs inside out so i don't need to say any more!! :P ;)

    Person 2: Amen sister! I agree with u in pretty much everything u said! I felt like i was reading my own responses! You could even say that our parents got their teaching from the same place (and passed it on)! Who knew! hahahahahaha :) Go YWAM!

    Am i person 5? :)

    hahhahahahahaaa anyways i don't have time or memory enough to account my varying emotions as i read this blog but i think it is great that discussions like this occur. i know they can be hard but they are great for growth. :P

    I hope and pray that after everything everyone will still hold to the truth that God loves them NO MATTER WHAT and that he calls us to love others this way cus that is the whole entire point of the Bible. No matter how you read it this is what ur life should be about. Theology dosn't matter in the end. Read Timothy 1:4 if you are in doubt.

    I post this comment with prayers that no one will take anything i have said the wrong way and that it wasn't cliched!

    Love you all :)

  2. Ok... just was told that person 2 isn't who i thought it was....
    sorry person 2! ignore my irrelevant comment about YWAM but i still totally agree with u whoever you are!

  3. Ok here is a thought....
    God told Hosea to marry a prostitute....
    It may be out of context or whatevs but it is something to consider i think :D

  4. the fact is though, we shouldn't try to justify our actions to God as if we have more control over our lives than He does. Our decisions should be made in accordance to the Bible and in faithful prayer to God, not guided by self-motivation and rejection of God's principles.

    More food for thought.

  5. I agree with most of that. But I would say that God has given us more power over our lives than he has. That is why we can do our own thing.

    If God had more power over our life than we do, then we would do exactly what he wants us to. The fact that we have the power to reject Gods principles (not neccesarily in the area of dating, but just generally) shows that God has infact given us more power over our lives than he has. He still is in control and could do whatever he wants with our lives at any time, but the fact we still sin and do things that he dosn't want us to shows that he dosn't really do this much. He lets us act act under our will, as he has ever since the beginning of time. Otherwise how could we sin?


  6. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that it doesn't actually say that we have free will anywhere in the bible, at least not in our sense of the phrase. We have the will to either follow God or not, and even that is sometimes in contention.

    Nonetheless, Paul is pretty clear when he speaks to the Romans:

    Romans 9:14-21 (New International Version, ©2011)

    14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

    “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[a]

    16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[b] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

    19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[c] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

    Whatever will we do or do not have, it ultimately ends with God. This isn't a license to do what we please because it's "part of God's will", because we do not know of God's decisions, which makes ours that much more important. It is imperative that our decisions are in line with what we learn from God's word, the Bible.

    We may not always understand God's will, in fact most often we don't. But it's still His will and He still does everything for a specific purpose, and that's His right as our creator.

  7. You should have also posted the debate from your wall, as I feel it offered extremely valid arguments from both sides. At the end of the day, Jessica, it is YOUR relationship with God, and yours alone. Neither me or your mother will ever force you into a certain belief, and anybody who tries can surely not be considered a true friend. God is the ultimate judge of you, and you have to answer only to Him. Pray to Him, and He may very well show you that he is accepting of your relationship as He can see the good to come from it, where others are blind to it. YOUR life, YOUR relationship with God, YOUR relationship with others, YOUR CHOICE

  8. I'm going to post the rest of this one soonish, then I'll make another post for mine..
    Thank you, I'm just sick of people telling me how I should live. It IS MY relationship with God, and I'll do whatever I think He wants me to do.
    People can't tell me what to do with my own relationships, unless they're me.
    So they should really stop expecting me to do whatever they think is God's will, because I'll do whatever I think is God's will.

  9. I lost my comment which is annoying. This is probably more summarized, as I cant stay on long.

    @ Jay.
    I was not seeking to force Jess into my beliefs, but trying to show her what God says. If this means that I am a 'bad' friend, then so be it, because I put God above all relationships and all friendships. I work hard at putting God first, and I fail A LOT, but I'm trying hard to keep from failing, and this is one way that it shows itself. Friendship isn't about telling the other person what they want to hear. It should be about being ready to challenge them to obey God in all things, and to care for them, even if it means you get into trouble for it.
    Why would God accept this relationship if it is sinful. I don't know 100% if it is sinful to date a non-christian, but it is sinful to marry them (see the bible verses I, person 1, put up). What is Dating if it isn't preparation for marriage?

    @ Rach.
    I think it is a bit different with Hosea. He had direct communication with God, and God told him directly that it was ok to do this.
    God told him this, because it was to paint a picture of Isreal. They had left God to pursue their happiness and to do whatever they wanted. They would turn to God when things were hard, then forsake him again. We need to put God first even when we don't want to, even when it means we 'miss out'. (sort of relates aye?)

    @ Jess.
    Again, I am sorry if I seemed to be forcing my views upon you. I think, as Rach said, It comes down to motives. So, what are your motives? Are they right or wrong? are they for God's glory or yours? Sure, it is almost impossible to be 100% purely right in motives, but we need to be working at it, and unless we are pretty close to that, we shouldn't act. Even if the relationship itself isn't sinful, will it be helpful to you in any way? Is it bringing you closer to God, or further away? Are you actually having an impact on Him? And, even if the relationship isn't sinful, it has opened up for HEAPS if temptation, and we should be fleeing from temptation yeah?

    Sorry if that was brief, I feel like I'm re-stating old arguments, because I wrote this comment twice now hahaha :D

    Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will. Romans 12:2.

  10. Hmmmm... yer good point nat. i still think it shows there can be exceptions to the rule, cus God DOES know what he is doing even if we can't see it, like Jay said. It is still possible to have direct communication with God. Im not saying that is or isn't happening here but it is possible. I don't know what is going on in this particular circumstance, because I havn't asked God about it. And I wouldn't cus it is truly none of my buisness, and God wouldn't tell me anyway cus he also knows it is none of my buisness.

    But maybe Jess HAS considered that and talked to God about it. I don't know. I don't really know much about the circumstances, and on that basis I am not going to make a judgement at all. It would be totally uninformed about things that are going on beneath the surface, and I believe that is truly what matters!

    And Jess, I hope and pray that you will seek God's will in this because no matter what anyone else has to say, it does come down to that, like you said. :D

    @Anonymous.... I thought you were Nat! Apparently not! But anyway, I don't see how it is possible that we couldn't even have the choice to follow God or not. If we were forced into that, it would be totally and utterly meaningless! It would make us in a way robots, who only turn to God because he pressed the right buttons. And that would mean that God sends people that he loves to hell because he doesn't press the right buttons on them. Also if God makes all the decisions, how can we make decisions also?

  11. And THAT is something that the greatest theologians debate to this day. It's also beside the point, because from OUR perspective, we still have free will, and we still have decisions to make. God calls us to follow Him and to make decisions that please Him, and the way we do that is to follow what's written in the bible, because it's not our right to defy God.

    All that other stuff is purely intellectual, we are lovingly saved by God's grace through Jesus, and we need to obey Him because of that.

  12. Okay, before I respond to all this, I'm putting up the rest of the discussion following on from the last comment here.
    Then, I'm posting my own Facebook status.

  13. Ok. Can I just point out, look at the series of events through this. First, you were saying how you doubt he will 'turn you against God' and look where we are now. God gives these laws for a reason, for our good. He doesn't seek to enslave us with countless laws, in fact he frees us from slavery in sin to be slaves to himself to glorify him.

  14. Nat, my relationship with him had nothing to do with my break down of my relationship with God. So don't talk about what you obviously don't know.

  15. A song that's helped me with questions like this... I hope it's a comfort to you, too. If it helps a tiny bit, great. If it doesn't, what have you lost?



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